Shaman balancing

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    • @unforgiven so u mean dragon shaman is a pvm class?
      Then why this low dmg from mount? and without mount, the critical chance from skills is really low and does not increase much the damage.
      If dragon is a pvp tell me why such gap from both shaman class? une can fire an has more critical chance (that does not increase much the dmg) and uses a bell to get 10% power up while loosing mav from fans and nerfed all 3 buf skills, while others have healing skill (got powered up) and remove lasting fire, venom, have 10% free bosted skills with fan (do not renounce to mav) and have a skill to run and cast spells faster.

      You still don't see that?
      “Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.”
      :!: John Robert Wooden :!:
      Customer complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn.
      Lou Guerstner

    • unforgiven wrote:

      Ok..

      So, I grabbed a shaman with an OK gear and tried to scale my damage up, as you usually would do. I have used the same gear to test the damage output from both Shamans. This is without crits.




      This is only using Fans so the Healing Shaman had the upper hand. What i did not add here was the DoT from lasting fire that was around 5k damage. If you consider this, Dragon Shamans were dealing more damage than Healing Shamans.
      Hello,

      I'm guessing that both Shaman's had the same equip and healing deals more dmg. Good as few of us asked u, why we are a pvm class, you can't calls us pvm class when we cannot have the same dmg output as lycans, sura or aura. We are not able to solo any boss, support class ? With 25 critic? Sorry but no, we have lost our support class status.
      I won't ask for more dmg, more critics or anything, dragon shaman is just doomed.
      Only way to keep up with this game is "Improvise, adapt, overcome" so i will go with GF love child and i will park/sell my dragon shaman, is the only viable option i can see atm.
      imgur.com/a/UaDaK


    • Rapier wrote:

      unforgiven wrote:

      And you will deal x2 against monsters....

      Apollykan wrote:

      A thing that i dont yet understand, will the critical hits/skill will be double damage like before on pve?
      Based on what unforgiven said above...yes you will have criticals like 2x normal damage in PvM. Only in PvP crit damage was decreased
      if that is true, at least we have our criticals in pve/pvm.. In pvp they could reduce the chance but, keep the 2x damage

    • Dragon chamans are very good on PvM, but ONLY if you compare them with other classes WITHOUT buffs from a dragon chaman.

      In PvP, sadly they lost their identity with the upgrade of roar, because now it's like a summon lightning. The gameplay of a dragon chaman in pvp will be very similar to the healers', running a lot, too bad for shooting dragon.

      Yeah, shooting dragon is the 2nd strong AOE of the dragon, but now if you decide to use it, you take a huge risk which is not worthy. This 2nd AOE is the only major perk of a dragon over a healer in PvP.

      Roar cannot hit invisible ninjas with the update sadly for the PvP.

      In terms of kiting, healers are better with lower CD and faster animations.

      In terms of AOE, lykan and warrior (not aura I don't know the english name) are stronger than dragons.

      So dragon is (as usual) an hybrid class, which is never the best, you can play different ways that's the true perk of this class.

      The support role in pvp is a bit boring sadly. With the update maybe teamplay will be requiered and good dragon players will be able to buff a lot of people. But even with this, because of critical nerf, the support role in PvP is not needed anymore. Healers buff are way better right now (1 buff > 3 buffs this is sad !).

    • well

      unforgiven wrote:

      And you will deal x2 against monsters. You cannot simply separate damage in PvP from PvE. Dragon Shamans can have full +39% critical hit chance. Healing Shamans will need to have this in their gear.

      And just one small note. In PvP, if you have 100% Critical Hit Chance before the patch and 80% after the patch, you still have HIGHER chance of landing Critical Hits with Skills after the patch than before. And, on top of that, the chance to do critical hits with normal hits has been reduced, which will make you stronger versus melee hitting classes.


      You comparing vs Healing Shaman on hits but forgetting all the other changes that happened and what they will bring.
      i dont undestend if when talking about pvm critical hit he means with a fan or bell or when casting spells, bc as told in lots of posts @unforgiven told us that pve and pvp are strongly linked so i can't imagine having x2 skills on pve and shitti extra dmg on pvp skills.
      And if that is true, just pushing more fisical...
      “Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.”
      :!: John Robert Wooden :!:
      Customer complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn.
      Lou Guerstner

    • TcatalunyaT wrote:

      well

      unforgiven wrote:

      And you will deal x2 against monsters. You cannot simply separate damage in PvP from PvE. Dragon Shamans can have full +39% critical hit chance. Healing Shamans will need to have this in their gear.

      And just one small note. In PvP, if you have 100% Critical Hit Chance before the patch and 80% after the patch, you still have HIGHER chance of landing Critical Hits with Skills after the patch than before. And, on top of that, the chance to do critical hits with normal hits has been reduced, which will make you stronger versus melee hitting classes.


      You comparing vs Healing Shaman on hits but forgetting all the other changes that happened and what they will bring.
      i dont undestend if when talking about pvm critical hit he means with a fan or bell or when casting spells, bc as told in lots of posts @unforgiven told us that pve and pvp are strongly linked so i can't imagine having x2 skills on pve and shitti extra dmg on pvp skills.And if that is true, just pushing more fisical...
      We have x2 damage in PvE with crits, I have tested it. In PvE everything is the same as before but we have less crits with Dragon's Aid and more % with Blessing (I can't say how much because the effect of Blessing doesn't appear in the bonus chart, @unforgiven, you could add it)

    • I somewhat feel sorry for Dragon Shamans, because even if @unforgiven 's statements are pretty hard to counter, I still think something is not right.

      The main problem deals with the bell specialization. Since GF seems to be so caring for older players, you probably know that every magic-user prefers weapons with higher "magical atkValues". So, there's almost no one (a part from rare cases) who has been using BELLS for PvP/skill casting.

      Moreover, the very basic concept wasn't this from the beginning. It has always been like this: bells deals higher physical damage and fans higher magical attack. It'd have had much more sense to nerf the magical value of bells, for instance - vice versa regarding fans.

      You say that you are not obliging anyone to switch to bells - well, that may be true, but considering that the biggest part of Metin2 communities is made up of older players, you're basically forcing the (already) pretty restricted population of Dragon Shamans to change their equipment. This is not fair, and it is not a correct way of dealing with players.

      The "part 1" of the update is finished, but the latter observation is undeniable.

      _

      Besides, if it's true that Dragon Shamans have "the upper hand" regarding PvE, I think they definitely should reach about 100% chance of critical hits when combining sell-buffs and equipment, maybe making it a "level-dependent" feature. For instance, there could be an extra-percentage on self-buff level-dependent.

      Not to mention Reflection which is quite useless, since its usefulness is somewhat reduced by Blessing.

      Now you'll throw at me several rotten tomatoes, I know. :D But sometimes I feel that a perfectioned version of Attack Up would suit Dragon Shamans much better than Reflection.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BlueShade ().

    • Let's do some calculations. I believe that maybe complaining about the CHANCE of critical hits is not entirely correct.

      +14% chances of critical hits ("crits") on heaven tears bracelet;
      +10% crits on necklace;
      +10% crits on shoes;
      +8% crits given by a spiritual stone

      = 42%.

      A normal character would have to use Critical Strike (+20%) and a perfect Red Dew (+20%) in order to approach 82%.

      By using the same equipment, a Shaman would reach about the same value, 81%.

      This is probably why many shamans are complaining.

      However, please NOTE that I'm voluntarily ignoring something, here - but we should not forget that OTHER items are provided with extra crits:
      +8% given by heaven tears earrings,
      10% given by a weapon bonus
      10% given by a skin+
      ...that would sum up to 70%, JUST WITH BASIC equipment (no buffs).
      This would bring to 70+40(the latter given by strike and dews) = over 100% crits on a "non shaman" character. And that's without considering buffs.

      But since these latter items are relatively difficult/expensive to find (or not convenient, because of the lack of HPs regarding earrings), we'll stick to the +42% "base" for every character.

      A shaman with a decent equipment (=42% crits), with +39% given by a self buff, would gain a total of 81%.
      With a "full crit" equipment (the one we'll actually ignore), a shaman would gain 70+39 = more than 100%, and that's WITHOUT having to use dews or death strike.

      ALL IN ALL: non-dragon shaman players have to use Crit.Strike and Dew to reach 100%.
      I guess that Dragon Aid makes up for them perfectly.

      The "bad news" is that going over 100% crits does not provide extra damage like extra piercing hits do, does it? Probably adding some extra effect would add more value to Dragon Shamans, since they are "crits specialists". However, I guess that this would make PvP calculations (and the general crits-associated damage) more complicated.

      Still, it seems to me that Dragon Aid is not so unbalanced for selfbuff, after all, as it allows a Shaman to skip two items that are not really easy to have.

      Do shamans agree with me, in a general way? @YoTeDoPo

      (Oh, I also ignored the +4% given by a "Crystal power 10", by the way).

      _

      Still, the whole situation is bitter, mostly because of the fan/bell thing.

      And also because of Reflection.

      The fact is, @unforgiven, there are really few reasons for a player to start as a Dragon Shaman, especially now that the "easy extra crits" have been removed.

      However, on the other hand, Healers became REALLY interesting: they are obviously in a better position regarding PvP, since their cooldowns are really fast, have got a significant cooldown+speed bonus, may heal themselves. And morever, with the new updates, they are CONSIDERABLY useful in PvE, because of "group healing".

      Being a Dragon Shaman actually does not really pay that much, because the only advantage a Shaman may give is actually skipping the necessity of brewing a Red Dew (or getting a Critical Strike).

      Yeah, I forgot about Blessing, that' a vital skill in high level maps. However, is it just that? You choose a Dragon Shaman just because of Blessing? The general gameplay sounds pretty limited to me.

      All in all, I think that Dragon Shamans really need something else. And again, I truly believe that Reflection is the problem here.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by BlueShade ().

    • @BlueShade

      In live servers right now if you go above 100% critical chances, you get nothing for normal attacks BUT you get better chances of criticals for skills. So dragon chamans (and buffed people in general) ALWAYS benefit of critical chances for the skills. We think (but not sure) that with 300% of critical chances (not possible) we have 100% TRUE chances of critical with the skills.

      I can't try the TRUE chance of critical hit in the BETA because my country's beta is closed for about 2 weeks -_-, ANYONE CAN TRY IT PLEASE? I asked for it like 2 or 3 times, you just have to use 100 or 200 skills and write down how many crits you get with how many chances... this is sad because the update is already done.

      @unforgiven Sorry but WHY don't you give the VALUES? WHY must we ALWAYS try to get them by ourselves... (for weapon bonus damages or for critical chances in pvp...). This is a stupid decision, we can't give a good feedback if we don't have the TRUE, the developpers' values ! We are just wasting or time to get something and we can do a lot of errors in our tests you know. (and in my country it isn't even possible -_-)

    • @Ponze: that's a good and honest observation, kudos to you. However, I was kinda limiting my speech to PvM.

      I didn't get a chance to do the tests I wanted to - regarding skills, by the way.

      So, just like you said, a Shaman can add +39% of his buffs to Dews and Critical Strike and get some extra damage on skills. Still, the critical hits outcome has been noticeably reduced, so a very high chance is certainly nice but it's not making a tremendous difference here, I believe.

      Moreover, the problems dealing the bells/fans policy and the uselessness of Reflection are still there.

    • @BlueShade if u were talking about pvm, but the main problem is in pvm too, for example, i am a dragon shaman who go lvl up using a fan and casting spells, so now i will have to create a lvl 80 bell with double demon to get an extra 10% dmg (that is les than 10% bc of the loss of mav) while healer gets more hp recovered per healing + 10% free powwerup ?

      sorry avoid post-truth!
      “Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.”
      :!: John Robert Wooden :!:
      Customer complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn.
      Lou Guerstner

    • Uhm. Does the +10% given by specialized weapon (i.e. bells for Dragon Shamsn) work like a "+10% damage vs. all, both melee hits and skills" or just as "+10% skill damage"?

      I haven't had the chance to test it, actually.

      In the first case, Shamans would definitely have a little advantage in PvM, since plain hits are certainly useful in many cases - I'm considering an extra 10% on a weapon with higher melee atkValue.

      However, I guess this is not enough to counter the new, versatile nature of Healers. If I were to chose a Shaman specialization as a new player right now, I'd definitely go for Healer, because I really believe it'd be much easier and enjoyable - while starting as a Dragon Sh. does not seem really easy at all.

      Not to mention the bell/fan switch.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by BlueShade ().

    • There is nothing to fix in the skills. They are working as intended. Reflection gives a part of the normal damage back to the attacker which increase - passively - the damage output. Attack Up can increase any other classes damage which means it can really break things if it gets increased.


      I have already shown that the Healing/Dragon Shaman have pretty similar damage outputs. It will depend mainly on the players' gear to maximize which parts suits them the best.