Shaman balancing

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    • unforgiven wrote:

      It has come to our notice that many players still haven’t understood the core reasoning behind these changes. We would like to try to dispel these misunderstandings.
      Are you kidding us? We understand what are you doing perfectly, you are trying to make Dragon Shamans useful un PvE, but with all your changes now Healing Shamans are better (more healing with cure) and using skills while doing PvE is not normally the best option in a Shaman. Also the strange things you are doing have made the Shaman even worse in PvE (less crits and really low additional attack value with the new stat changes) and Dragon Shamans have to change their weapons:

      unforgiven wrote:

      Our core ideas for balancing are:
      • Provide characters with the necessary tools to handle PvE and PvP environments while keeping their basic archetypes (damage dealer, tank, etc.)
      • Provide some quality of life improvements
      • Solve the problems with the formulas
      • Decrease the possibility of item devaluation to a minimum

      Wow, decrease the possibility of item devaluation to a minium. And what happen with all our fans (in dragon shamans) and all the PvP equipment with critical hit? You are full of contradictions...

    • I guess the answer you'll receive is that the equipment will still remain valuable as it will still be better compared to a weapon without critical for ex. There are not NEW bonuses introduced, that makes the existing ones useless. They just lower the effect of the existing bonuses but they will still remain good bonuses to choose.

      The only fact is that now, since critical damage is lowered, it might be better a 12 DEX/ 12 INT/12 STR bonus on a weapon than a 10% critical chance. And this will change the things a little cause we can't change the bonuses now (we will loose the Half Human added bonus).

      And also yes, the added bonus for using bells it might be too much. Maybe lower the bonus a bit just the have sligtly lower skill damage with bells than with fans. Fan allways had better MAV and bells always had better physical damage. Fans are good for skills, bells for hits (at least for Dragon Shamans). Keep it like this and eventually add a bonus for using bells that makes bells more usefull in PvP too...but not to surpass the fans.

      As you said, it is a matter of choice how you raise your char and what fighting techiques use. There could be shamans that increase their STR stat and use bells for serious hit damage (coupled with attack/attack at biologist quests might be devastating), especially cause almost no one has bell defence...they just happen to have fans sometimes but almost nobody had intention to get bell defence on any item. So a Schaman like I said above with attack /attack, STR instead of DEX and brilliant or excellent ruby and good items, cand blow you of the map with a bell.

      Now you can literally say..."Saved by the bell...!!"

      The post was edited 7 times, last by Rapier ().

    • Rapier wrote:

      I guess the answer you'll receive is that the equipment will still remain valuable as it will still be better compared to a weapon without critical for ex. There are not NEW bonuses introduced, that makes the existing ones useless. They just lower the effect of the existing bonuses but they will still remain good bonuses to choose.

      The only fact is that now, since critical damage is lowered, it might be better a 12 DEX/ 12 INT/12 STR bonus on a weapon than a 10% critical chance. And this will change the things a little cause we can't change the bonuses now (we will loose the Half Human added bonus).

      And also yes, the added bonus for using bells it might be too much. Maybe lower the bonus a bit just the have sligtly lower skill damage with bells than with fans. Fan allways had better MAV and bells always had better physical damage. Fans are good for skills, bells for hits (at least for Dragon Shamans). Keep it like this and eventually add a bonus for using bells that makes bells more usefull in PvP too...but not to surpass the fans.

      As you said, it is a matter of choice how you raise your char and what fighting techiques use. There could be shamans that increase their STR stat and use bells for serious hit damage (coupled with attack/attack at biologist quests might be devastating), especially cause almost no one has bell defence...they just happen to have fans sometimes but almost nobody had intention to get bell defence on any item. So a Schaman like I said above with attack /attack, STR instead of DEX and brilliant or excellent ruby and good items, cand blow you of the map with a bell.

      Now you can literally say..."Saved by the bell...!!"
      No, it's a huge devaluation. There is no need to add a new item to make an old item devaluated, you just have to calculate the damages you get from criticals:

      If you have 50% critical chances in your gear (example), for skill damage it is:

      Before: 0.3 * 0.5 = 0.15 => this is 15% damage boost in pvp

      Now: You just get 300 flat damage * 0.3 * 0.5 = 45 flat damage per skill

      This is what I call a devaluation. Criticals are totally USELESS they just make a cool effect on your enemy.

      And you say you can use average damage in pvp with a bell? No, did you just try it against a warrior? You just keep falling on the ground you can't even hit the warrior 1 time ^^. And of course with the dragon buffs on your enemy you will deal no damage no matter how many bell defense he has. It's just useful in some 1v1 situations, but not always.

    • What I wanted to say, but it seems you missed my point, is that even with so low critical, it is still BETTER THAN NOTHING. With that low critical damage it is still more than without ANY damage. The fact you or I or anyone else don't like the values, is a totally different story, but it is an increased damage. If you consider it useless, I can assure some others won't. And when you'll fight, you will deal 1k damage and the opponent will do 1.2 or 1.3 and will matter then.

      And sorry to say, if you speak of damages like 300 PER SKILL that means you're level 50 or so. I cannot imagine any 100+ char dealing 300 damage per skill...not even without any items. I was talking about lvl up chars with items and I can assure you could take 10k damage PER HIT from such a Shaman with a bell.

    • @unforgiven then if removing criticasl prom pvp hope the X3 damage from ninjas and wolfs skills will be deleted no ? and fisical atacs crom all characters won't dmg a lot more than normal jits on pvp hope. Because if not you are really wrong ont sayying it will be more fun it will take longer to kil ... now healers can heal a lot an yo dont deal dmg to be able to kill them that is what happens if decreased the dmg from critics and the boost on shamans, what dragon shamans earn ? just some av in pve and loos from % of skills ?

      i dont agree with that and i can imagine most of players do not agree too.

      pd: remember that wolfs have2 skills with 20% on each skill and that on pvp is a lot if all char get a nerf on pvp critic
      “Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.”
      :!: John Robert Wooden :!:
      Customer complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn.
      Lou Guerstner

    • IElfenLied wrote:

      unforgiven wrote:

      So, as last question:
      - If I request that there no change will happen to Dragon Shaman the players here will be happy? (this doesn't mean that it will happen!)
      this will include:
      - no increase in damage in any way
      - no changes on how the skills work
      - no change at all only for Dragon Shaman
      my answer yes
      Same here... yes.
      But it isnt correct. My answer is yes because your nerfing the dragon shaman and equipment whit your "improvments"

      You should leave it as it was and only raise the damage to the skills. Nothing more (because the critial is not dmg x 2 like it was before)

    • unforgiven wrote:

      So, as last question:
      - If I request that there no change will happen to Dragon Shaman the players here will be happy? (this doesn't mean that it will happen!)
      this will include:
      - no increase in damage in any way
      - no changes on how the skills work
      - no change at all only for Dragon Shaman
      So the only thing we will get from this beta is that our crits will do barely any damage in pvp and anti magic will be heavily nerfed (because these changes were "general changes" and not shaman specific)? If that is the case then no I won't be happy with reverting the beta changes and I'd rather try to live with the original changes you made at first (before you changed the weapon specialization to 10% from 20-30%). The changes you made to the skills (shooting/talis/roar) were actually pretty good (shooting and talis cooldown up but roar got a nice mini "rework" + greatly increased lasting fire chance for both shoot and roar). The only thing I wasn't happy about was that you wouldnt give something to change fans into bells, since bells were mostly (if not only) used for pvm this change would only give us a slight advantage in pvm by using our bells (if u keep the 20-30% increase). 20-30%increase seems like alot but since the increased damage is for skills only this buff will be very situational since 75% of the time I pvm I do it from horseback. Eventually there will be pvp bells for sale in the game and we will get our advantage from the weapon specialization in pvp but it's just a shame webzen/gameforge (whoever decides this) won't give us any proper solution for the low amount of pvp bells in the game "issue". So personally I would only like to see the last "changes" to shamans reverted (decreased dragon aid cd/decreased crit chance/bell damage down to 10%).

    • - Everyone liked the changes made on dmg skills .
      - Everyone liked the idea of 30% bonus dmg on fans/bells. (the only problem is the passage from bells to fans in pvp for dragon shamans)
      - Everyone liked the increment of physical dmg given by INT and DEX, eventough it's a little.
      - No one liked the nerf to dragon's aid and buffs in general. (I think that with higher cooldowns we can survire, but lower % in buff not.)
      - Healer dmg is to high than dragon shaman's. (and don't say that it's because DS are better in pvm, because the difference is too high) watch below:


      That's the situation.

      What do you want to do about the last two things? @unforgiven

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Priore ().

    • Priore wrote:

      - Everyone liked the changes made on dmg skills .
      - Everyone liked the idea of 30% bonus dmg on fans/bells. (the only problem is the passage from bells to fans in pvp for dragon shamans)
      - Everyone liked the increment of physical dmg given by INT and DEX, eventough it's a little.
      - No one liked the nerf to dragon's aid and buffs in general. (I think that with higher cooldowns we can survire, but lower % in buff not.)
      - Healer dmg is to high than dragon shaman's. (and don't say that it's because DS are better in pvm, because the difference is too high) watch below:


      That's the situation.

      What do you want to do about the last two things? @unforgiven
      Totally agree with you, the damage Dragon Shamans have with bells is very nice, but nobody has a PvP Bell and everybody has PvP Fan, so you are forcing us to change our weapons.
      About the buffs, I have not seen anyone who supports the changes, but they are nerfing them more and more (where is our feedback??)...

    • Priore wrote:

      - Everyone liked the changes made on dmg skills .
      - Everyone liked the idea of 30% bonus dmg on fans/bells. (the only problem is the passage from bells to fans in pvp for dragon shamans)
      - Everyone liked the increment of physical dmg given by INT and DEX, eventough it's a little.
      - No one liked the nerf to dragon's aid and buffs in general. (I think that with higher cooldowns we can survire, but lower % in buff not.)
      - Healer dmg is to high than dragon shaman's. (and don't say that it's because DS are better in pvm, because the difference is too high) watch below:

      Shaman dragon force vs healing force
      That's the situation.
      At most points I agree with what you say. The only thing I disagree with is the extra damage from the bell or fanes being a specific breed. This I see it negative for all those who already have made the pvp weapons except for the shaman heal that for them or change them since as obviously before with the fans with high magic value they hit more, this update does not affect them, it is more power to such an extent that it generates an imbalance greater than it already exists. For this very reason I believe that this of weapons harms enormously to the shamans dragons and this specialization should not exist, of last my proposal would be the following, that the system of damages from arms continues like the present one, where the fanes are used mainly in pvp and bells for pvm. And if anyone wants to have a pvp bell that will be a particular taste of each one, but it is not advisable because it is made for pvm especially for its high physical damage compared to the fanes.
      In the other points I agree with you especially to touch the buffs which I see unnecessary because the only thing they have done is to make a balance telling us that if we increase the% increase the cooldown or vice versa, and this is not correct since currently the idea of the dragon shaman when he has to fulfill his support role is to keep the group with buffs and if we do this to increase the cooldown he will never be able to fulfill his role since where a character dies he will have to wait 1min or more at the moment to be able to give buffs back and above that give like half in% that gave before practically.
      It is more I add that this last point is something that we have never claimed the players that touched such skills as the buffs, which if I think it is a good idea is that the shaman himself gives him an extra% to be his aura and thus would make him stronger to the own shaman to have better% his auras for himself.
      In order to make a final idea, I think the dragon shaman must be able to fulfill his role of magic character in pvp, his support role in pvm since these 2 parts is where this character specializes, and where I see him more oriented because since it has no auras of physical damage, it can never be the one that beats most normal hits, but if it can be the character that with magic abilities can kill fast because of their cooldown and if you add the improvements in his attack abilities will have a good improvement in his abilities that will be the possibility of having more effects besides the durable fire which I see necessary for the great improvement that they are doing to the archer in effects.
      With the changes in their buffs, the dragon shaman will not be able to fulfill well the role of support that has and is more due to the advantages that have given to the shaman healer in giving them more damage, will be very harmed in the pvp especially with the problem of extra damage from one type of weapon. With that the 2 roles that have current, are very harmed by this update.
      For this very reason I think what is wrong in this beta is this and I think I said it earlier.
      -The extra damage that comes from a fan / bell depending on what kind of shaman you are.
      -The change of buffs in their%, cooldown and current system can only give group auras, without giving them the freedom to choose whether to give someone individually or give auras group.
      -The extra damage that has been given to the curing shaman and the attempt to balance that removing the lasting blackout from the leadership, as if it were a large measure against them, which in common pvp can occur but that does not affect their damage, but only a very wide advantage that had against others and perhaps affects more in the subject pvm than pvp. And over compensate them with extra damage because they remove this, which they do not need extra damage since they have good damage currently on the normal server.
      I think that is where the main criticism of this update of most players in the subject of shamans and the new damage of the critics in pvp, which makes them quite useless since the extra damage achieved in a critical is practically so little that it is not noticed.
      That's all and I hope they keep it in mind as we are giving our feedback.
      JonyBelmont, Body Warrior lv112. Metin2.es Server: Nemesis.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Blesenth ().

    • Blesenth wrote:

      Priore wrote:

      - Everyone liked the changes made on dmg skills .
      - Everyone liked the idea of 30% bonus dmg on fans/bells. (the only problem is the passage from bells to fans in pvp for dragon shamans)
      - Everyone liked the increment of physical dmg given by INT and DEX, eventough it's a little.
      - No one liked the nerf to dragon's aid and buffs in general. (I think that with higher cooldowns we can survire, but lower % in buff not.)
      - Healer dmg is to high than dragon shaman's. (and don't say that it's because DS are better in pvm, because the difference is too high) watch below:

      Shaman dragon force vs healing force
      That's the situation.
      At most points I agree with what you say. The only thing I disagree with is the extra damage from the bell or fanes being a specific breed. This I see it negative for all those who already have made the pvp weapons except for the shaman heal that for them or change them since as obviously before with the fans with high magic value they hit more, this update does not affect them, it is more power to such an extent that it generates an imbalance greater than it already exists. For this very reason I believe that this of weapons harms enormously to the shamans dragons and this specialization should not exist, of last my proposal would be the following, that the system of damages from arms continues like the present one, where the fanes are used mainly in pvp and bells for pvm. And if anyone wants to have a pvp bell that will be a particular taste of each one, but it is not advisable because it is made for pvm especially for its high physical damage compared to the fanes.In the other points I agree with you especially to touch the buffs which I see unnecessary because the only thing they have done is to make a balance telling us that if we increase the% increase the cooldown or vice versa, and this is not correct since currently the idea of the dragon shaman when he has to fulfill his support role is to keep the group with buffs and if we do this to increase the cooldown he will never be able to fulfill his role since where a character dies he will have to wait 1min or more at the moment to be able to give buffs back and above that give like half in% that gave before practically.
      It is more I add that this last point is something that we have never claimed the players that touched such skills as the buffs, which if I think it is a good idea is that the shaman himself gives him an extra% to be his aura and thus would make him stronger to the own shaman to have better% his auras for himself.
      In order to make a final idea, I think the dragon shaman must be able to fulfill his role of magic character in pvp, his support role in pvm since these 2 parts is where this character specializes, and where I see him more oriented because since it has no auras of physical damage, it can never be the one that beats most normal hits, but if it can be the character that with magic abilities can kill fast because of their cooldown and if you add the improvements in his attack abilities will have a good improvement in his abilities that will be the possibility of having more effects besides the durable fire which I see necessary for the great improvement that they are doing to the archer in effects.
      Exacly, this is what i don't understand, why @unforgiven dosen't get it that fan's are better in pvp then bells so ok u give us weapon specialization bonus 30%, all of us complained about heal shaman having to much dmg and dragon shaman did like half of that, so what did he do? lower that bonus for 10% how can that help us? the difference is the same they will deal way more dmg because fans have more MAV, what we need is a different bonus for each class, like 30% for bells 10% for fans, we don't want bigger dmg then healing shaman but we deserve at least the same not to mention that our skills where made to deal more dmg because we have lower recharge on all skill, and heal can hit from distance with all skills.
      In pvp we lost our main strength - critic so what's left for us? nerfed dmg? All healing shaman skills got reduced cool down and he got an improved cure. Yea we got a better dragon roar and better lasting fire but both of them combined ain't that op to justify our dmg being cut in half, and no we can't use fans they will still deal more dmg, why u add something new to the game that suppose to help us if u telling me that i can still use fan in pvp?

    • I agree with @Blesenth about the fan/bell specialization, but don't forget low level characters such as low level pvp healers with lv 30 bells.

      Because of antimagic stones, the lv 30 bell has a higher DPS than the lv 30 fan, some healers just got >20 skill damage on their pvp lv 30 or lv 75 bells. So this patch isn't only bad for dragon, low level dragons are now a lot better than low level healers (if we don't apply the critical changes in pvp at least).

      I know Webzen and Gameforge don't look at low level characters' opinion, but this is important in a pvp update if they want new people to come in the game.

    • Attis85 wrote:

      Hello!

      The cure remove the posion, the bleeding, deceleration, stun and lasting fire.
      The dragon Shaman become in pve better as healing Shaman. This abbear well now also. It is true than healing Shaman can prevail well in pve, but not so well as dragon Shaman.
      Hello, name a boss or metin stone that u cant beat and i will try it on both dragon and heal shaman. I know that blessing seem to help alot but combined with low hit dmg won't make a diffrence. We are not a class that can grow solo in room 13 Grotto of Exile 2 for example. That being said we don't deserve to be called an pvm class and we don't deserve to get worse in pvp just for this reason, like @unforgiven said, we are talking here about our solo capabilities.

    • CantBuffU wrote:

      Attis85 wrote:

      Hello!

      The cure remove the posion, the bleeding, deceleration, stun and lasting fire.
      The dragon Shaman become in pve better as healing Shaman. This abbear well now also. It is true than healing Shaman can prevail well in pve, but not so well as dragon Shaman.
      Hello, name a boss or metin stone that u cant beat and i will try it on both dragon and heal shaman. I know that blessing seem to help alot but combined with low hit dmg won't make a diffrence. We are not a class that can grow solo in room 13 Grotto of Exile 2 for example. That being said we don't deserve to be called an pvm class and we don't deserve to get worse in pvp just for this reason, like @unforgiven said, we are talking here about our solo capabilities.

      Hello!
      My experiences are on live- and beta server in pve. as healing shaman.
      Dragon and heal shaman can beat all metin stone well as with bell and horse.
      But bosses can not heal shaman beat. If i have bell and horse then i can not kill the boss. I need help from my partner. I can not use posion, bleeding and i can not heal from horse and other horses. If i use my fan from earth for the boss-beating then i can use cure that i can kill perhaps the boss alone but it is not so sure.
      The dragon shaman can use the lasting fire to boss-killing. But it must be careful by boss-killing. With lasting fire can the dragon shaman kill better in pve.
      I do not evade intentional onto shaman buff, and i do not want to proceed.