NINJAS: Dragon Soul Alchemy atk-value NOT WORKING while using transformation!

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    • NINJAS: Dragon Soul Alchemy atk-value NOT WORKING while using transformation!

      Greetings,

      I wanted to point out a major issue concerning transformation: while using a polymorph marbe, attack value given by DSS won't be taken into account in damage calculations.

      By chance :) I had some marbles with me and my standard equipment. So, I asked for a help and I've been lucky to find a really kind player from Poland - thank you, M3STER! :) - who helped me out with calculations.

      I basically spent some time crafting two different types of DSS Ruby: the first one having attack value, the other one having average damage, in order to evaluate the different effects of those bonuses.

      Since crafting is somewhat difficult, I went for Brilliant DSS Rubies.

      I obviously mounted them in their respective slots (since, luckily, there are two different alchemy sets).

      -
      EDIT: I forgot to specify my character is a bow Ninja, level 93.

      So, I transformed into Savage Minion while wearing a pair of Devil Chakram with avg damage and keeping DSS DISABLED and copied down some damage values - I won't take into account tens and units:

      3600
      3800
      7300 (critical)
      9040 (critical + piercing?)
      7700 (crit.)
      7500 (crit.)
      3500
      3700

      THEN, I enabled the set containing the avg-damage ruby and I got these results:

      4200
      4300
      8100 (crit.)
      4300
      4400
      8500 (crit.)
      10000 (critical + piercing?)

      I turned off DSS. Much to my surprise, I kept doing about 4000 plain damages, like if the system kept in mind the contribution given by the ruby.

      =

      I asked my helper to kill my character, in order to nullify transformations. And then, I transformed once again, by using another marble and keeping DSS disabled.

      We checked for the damages: they were pretty much similar to the ones written in the first list of this message.

      Then I enabled the DSS set containing the atk-value ruby:

      3700
      3800
      3800
      3900
      7700(crit.)
      3600
      7800(crit.)

      As you can see, even if a brilliant ruby supplies the character with an extra +270 atk value, it won't be took into account. The slight improvement in damage is probably given by +9 STR points.

      However, average damages percentage works pretty well.

      I think this a really annoying issue, considering that in standard communities, crafting DSS stones is pretty expensive and requires much time. I don't get why transformed characters cannot fully benefit from the bonuses given by these stones.

      Please do something about it.

      Thanks for your time!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by BlueShade ().

    • Please note that while Warriors, Suras and Lycan do not always need to transform - and therefore, may sum the FULL contributions of DSS to their self-buff skills, Ninjas rely only on transformation in order to make better damages.

      However, if atk value is NOT taken into account, there's a considerable difference in their outcomes.

    • Don't worry, we are reading everything, but also we do have weekends and other things to do. :)

      I gave your explanation a shot and to me, it looks (mostly) fine. The UI definitely has an issue regarding the shown damage values (I can see the "real" values as well, which don't match any of the UIs), but DSS does seem to influence the damage (with one exception, see list of issues below).

      My test setup: A blank warrior level 120 with one ruby DSS (only 360atk as additional bonus). I took a wild dog polymorph marble (gives +300 extra damage, see new bonus window) and tested my damage killing wild dogs.

      Short version:
      Without DSS, I made about 1700 damage. With +360atk DSS, it increased to 2800.

      Long version:
      With the character window showing 420 damage and polymorph giving a 300% attack bonus (damage x4), the expected damage of ~1700 (420x4=1680) was reached.
      With the DSS enabled, the attack value was at 804 (420+360+24 from str), which led to a damage below the expectation (around 2800 instead of 3200), but clearly showed an increase in damage.


      There is quite a list of issues though, which will probably have led you to a false result (which I can totally understand):
      • Only when enabling DSS after using the polymorph marble, the additional DSS damage takes effect. It is sufficient to disable and enable DSS again, though.
      • Polymorph does seem to lead to a wrong stat calculation, at least I lost some damage points that most likely were from the level 92 bio quest (only temporary of course).
      • There is some damage missing in the calculation with polymorph, reason unknown.
      • The new bonus UI (and because of it also the old UI) show wrong values (e.g. character window says 444, bonus window 310 and my internal tool 804, which is 444 + 360...). The old character window does not show the +ATK bonus as increase in normal damage anymore - I compared it to an older version.
      • The new bonus UI does mix up +ATK and +% ATK bonuses (the one from level 80 bio quest).
      Edit: Had to fix two issues with my results. The new bonus UI does actually show the damage boost of polymorph in % (in the last section).

      I hope this is enough as an answer for you. Of course I'll forward all issues internally.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Aworan ().

    • I really appreciate your feeDback, @Aworan - please do not abandon this matter, as I think it's quite important for balancing purposes.

      However, I didn't fully understand the outcome of your tests. My questions are:

      - are ATKvalue bonuses given by lv.92-94 quests taken into account or not?

      - I'm pretty sure I enabled DSS right AFTER using polymorph, but still, the increase in damage given by the +270atk Ruby was unsignificant. Are you sure your increases aren't merely due to +12 STR?

      - Could it be that Atk value calculations properly work on Warriors but NOT on Ninjas?

      - Could it be related to the fact that your test-Warrior wasn't wearing any weapon, while my ninja wore a pair of Daggers?

      - could it be related to the marble type, for instance, could Savage Minion be bugged?

      - what about atk values from Blue Dews or other items, such as Tiger Bone Earrings?

      - what about +15% damage given by pets, like Khan?

      - what about %berserk given by pets like Razador?

      =

      I know you're busy with many other issues - and I also know you need to take some rest every now and then. :D But please, this issue has been ignored for a very long time. Now that we finally have a chance to solve it, I'd be really glad to be followed by an expert tester as you are.

      =

      EDIT: moreover, I think I may help you into doing calculations concerning some aspects (for instance, pet influences). However, my polymorph marbles availability is pretty limited, as this matter probably was not mainly intended to be fixed with this beta.

      Obviously I absolutely have no chance to understand lv.92-94 quests contribution, as I cannot complete them.

      However I feel that if we don't try to solve these issues now, in this occasion, they'll never be fixed.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by BlueShade ().

    • BlueShade wrote:

      - are ATKvalue bonuses given by lv.92-94 quests taken into account or not?
      It seems not to be taken into account currently. This has nothing to do with the additional damage coming from the bio quest though, it is a general problem.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - what about atk values from Blue Dews or other items, such as Tiger Bone Earrings?
      Without actually testing it, I can say with quite a certainty that potions will suffer from the same issue as the bio quest, except if they are used after the poly marble. This definitely needs validation (will do so later this day probably), but it would make sense from a technical standpoint.
      Tiger Bone Earrings on the other hand are more like equipment, I guess they just work.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - I'm pretty sure I enabled DSS right AFTER using polymorph, but still, the increase in damage given by the +270atk Ruby was unsignificant. Are you sure your increases aren't merely due to +12 STR?
      Yes. STR increases damage of a warrior by 2 per point (hence the 24dmg from 12str in my explanation above). Without a weapon and percentual bonuses, it is impossible that 12str cause an increase in damage of about 70%.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - Could it be that Atk value calculations properly work on Warriors but NOT on Ninjas?
      I cannot really assure that all classes work identically in all aspects, but the bio quest issue for example has nothing to do with the class. Actually I'm quite sure the class doesn't matter.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - Could it be related to the fact that your test-Warrior wasn't wearing any weapon, while my ninja wore a pair of Daggers?
      It would be interesting to see the difference between without a weapon and with a weapon, but the reason I omitted one is that weapons add a damage range... which makes it harder to test and comprehend.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - could it be related to the marble type, for instance, could Savage Minion be bugged?
      Very unlikely and I'm missing the insights to answer this thoroughly.

      BlueShade wrote:

      - what about +15% damage given by pets, like Khan?

      BlueShade wrote:

      - what about %berserk given by pets like Razador?
      They should add to the 300% bonus damage from polymorph, but I'll check it as well.

    • Thanks Aworan for the answers. About the marble type the only one i know that it is bugged is the Ogre Warrior, with this, you cannot hit any player or monster and it is useless. This needs to be fixed too.
      About the damage i didn´t know that it was bugged with the alchemy and others potions or bio quests when you use a polymorph. Better to wait for the tests and that this is fixed since it would be a bug that affects all races and especially archer ninjas that depend on the polymorphism.
      JonyBelmont, Body Warrior lv112. Metin2.es Server: Nemesis.

    • I think that there is still drop for that poly marble. Because in the last year i reported that bug in my server and that poly marble was from that year. The other thing I wanted to ask was this. Anyone who has a well-placed monsters card system, has checked to see if this same bug happens when one becomes a monster that has 3 stars or more?
      JonyBelmont, Body Warrior lv112. Metin2.es Server: Nemesis.

    • Hello there, @Aworan !

      I made another test - and well, I clearly got the impression that atk-value given by DSS doesn't properly work.

      I'll try to attach some screenshots to provide more evidence while I copy down the results of my tests.

      _

      First of all, I started off with a Lv.93 Ninja, having 90 points on both STR and DEX.

      I haven't completed lv.92 quest yet, so I do not have additional atk value from that mission.

      I did, however, complete Tugyi's tablets quest, so I guess there's about a 10% damage to take into account, somewhere.

      I wasn't wearing any piece of equipment except from a tissue belt and an armor (which doesn't provide any atk value bonus).

      _

      (A)

      I decided to go for the same approach experimented by you: so, I chose not to wear any weapon. That way, Atk Damage in the Character Sheet (or "UI") was exactly 416.

      As I transformed into a Fanatic Brutal, Atk Damage in UI istantly decreased to 366. I don't know if it's intended this way or not.

      While attacking Stray Dogs, I registered the following damage range: 1349-1367.

      imgur.com/a/DU6fv

      (B)

      I decided to summon Khan, which should provide me +15% extra damage. And well, damage increased. I got a range of 1588-1592.

      imgur.com/a/7AVjP

      (B1)

      Then, I removed Khan: much to my surprise, damage range did NOT fall to 1349-1367 again, but was higher, around 1517-1535. It's like if, the fact of activating some power-up and then putting it off produces some effects on calculations.

      I call this a bug.

      (C)

      So, as I said before, still keeping the Khan AWAY, I was still registering a range of 1517-1535.

      I turned on the 270atkValue-only Ruby. The first odd thing I noticed is that Atk-Damage in UI changed from 366 to 384: those +270 weren't taken into account in the character sheet.

      However, much to my surprise, actual damages FELL DOWN to 1410-1429!!! That is REALLY odd!

      imgur.com/a/K5oVQ

      Turning alchemy off refreshed damage range from before, that is to say, 1517-1535.

      (D)

      Then I went for the 14%avg-damage ruby, activating it. My damage range rose: 1620-1656.

      imgur.com/a/kMAoY

      (E)

      I also summoned Khan by keeping the 14%Avg-damage ruby enabled: I got the highest range, about 1882.

      imgur.com/a/Aw478

      =

      Then, I went for another test.

      I sacrificed my atk-Value ruby, removing it - and crafted another Brilliant Ruby, which doesn't give ANY extra bonus at all, except from +9 STR.

      I made the same tests and, well, I was right. By keeping the "bad" Ruby enabled, I got an actual damage of about 1420, similarly to the results from the "C" test.

      imgur.com/a/lqAgu

      The post was edited 1 time, last by BlueShade ().

    • BlueShade wrote:

      As I transformed into a Fanatic Brutal, Atk Damage in UI istantly decreased to 366. I don't why if it's intended this way or not.
      This is not intended at all, from my perspective. It seems you lost the 50 damage from the level 60 bio quest, which is what I already noted in my test above.

      BlueShade wrote:

      Then, I removed Khan: much to my surprise, damage range did NOT fall to 1349-1367 again, but was higher, around 1517-1535. It's like if, the fact of activating some power-up and then putting it off produces some effects on calculations.
      And that is probably the return of the 50 damage from the bio quest, multiplied by 3-4 because of the 300% poly buff or so... well, I'll investigate further. :)

      YoTeDoPo wrote:

      I don't know if it is a bug, but the damage that you deal polymorphed using Card System is not the same as using a polymorph marble (is lower), making this system useless and a waste of time.
      I agree with you, see my previous post. But this shouldn't be part of this discussion.

    • Here my results of the second test session:

      Aworan wrote:

      Without actually testing it, I can say with quite a certainty that potions will suffer from the same issue as the bio quest, except if they are used after the poly marble. This definitely needs validation (will do so later this day probably), but it would make sense from a technical standpoint.
      As expected, dews suffer from exactly the same issue as they are using the same bonus system in the background. This will therefore also affect other things.

      Aworan wrote:

      Tiger Bone Earrings on the other hand are more like equipment, I guess they just work.
      Ok, I was wrong. They don't work and you cannot re-equip them as you cannot change equip while being in poly. Interestingly, equipment itself seems to work though. At least I make a lot more damage when I equip a weapon, which lets me assume the weapon is counted properly.

      Aworan wrote:

      They should add to the 300% bonus damage from polymorph, but I'll check it as well.
      Ok, I was here wrong as well. It is another bonus which should in theory behave the same as +% Attack Value, but it really raises the question why we have two bonuses (that do the same) in the first place. So somehow I feel like there must be a difference which I haven't found yet.

      Aworan wrote:

      It would be interesting to see the difference between without a weapon and with a weapon, but the reason I omitted one is that weapons add a damage range... which makes it harder to test and comprehend.
      All issues described above are there with weapon and other equipment also. The equipment itself works fine.