Difference between various Kyanite weapons

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    • Difference between various Kyanite weapons

      As the title says, I would like to know (and maybe I'm not the only one) what's the logic that sits behind various Kyanite weapons stats. And please, don't come with standard answers like "Webzen wants this". With answers like this, Webzen will remain to play this game alone. For years, the weapons had some weak spots and some strong ones, mostly in line with the charater that uses them. Now I don't find some reasons for:

      1. WHY do the Kyanite Daggers have 25 Half Human bonus while all others have only 20? Don't say they have less attack or that the "poor" Dagger Ninja is helpless so he need stronger weapon. It is the ONLY class that can do 2 x hit instead of just one (as the other chars can). That means that Dagger Ninjas always do 2 x hit damage per blow compared to the other classes and now you give them MORE Half Human bonus on the weapon? Why don't put 25 HH on bells or fans cause shamans have the lowest skill damage. Or put it on Magic Suras weapon as this class had no benefit at all from this "ballancing"
      2. Why do various Kyanite weapons have different attack speeds? Some have 27, some 25 some 30...? Always, all weapons from a certain lvl had the same attack speed, now they have THREE?
      3. The ONLY weapon for the warrior is the two hand one. That means warrior does NOT have a weapon that could have 2 x Half Human bonus because the 2 hand weapon is transformed from Half Human Blade which cannot have it. Why?

      There are alot of changes that are not so obvious and might pass un-noticed by most of us. Nobody says a word about them and even if somebody makes a remark, it will pass silently. So Webzen will do what they want, nobody asks, everybody happy, right?...WRONG! Maybe I want 25 hh on my bow too...I bet a warrior would like 30 hh to compensate for the lack of double hh on his weapon. Why these are never questioned? You said you want ballance and start with status, skills and so on, but with each and every change looks like more un-ballance is added to the game, besides those existing bugs that already give advantages to some classes (remember the mount attack BUG?). And these bugs are always not the purpose of any beta testing, are always not a priority, are always not critical or important. I get it, solving bugs don't gather money, just waste them....but makes players happy you know? And a happy player is more willingly to invest his money

    • Rapier wrote:

      As the title says, I would like to know (and maybe I'm not the only one) what's the logic that sits behind various Kyanite weapons stats. And please, don't come with standard answers like "Webzen wants this". With answers like this, Webzen will remain to play this game alone. For years, the weapons had some weak spots and some strong ones, mostly in line with the charater that uses them. Now I don't find some reasons for:

      1. WHY do the Kyanite Daggers have 25 Half Human bonus while all others have only 20? Don't say they have less attack or that the "poor" Dagger Ninja is helpless so he need stronger weapon. It is the ONLY class that can do 2 x hit instead of just one (as the other chars can). That means that Dagger Ninjas always do 2 x hit damage per blow compared to the other classes and now you give them MORE Half Human bonus on the weapon? Why don't put 25 HH on bells or fans cause shamans have the lowest skill damage. Or put it on Magic Suras weapon as this class had no benefit at all from this "ballancing"
      2. Why do various Kyanite weapons have different attack speeds? Some have 27, some 25 some 30...? Always, all weapons from a certain lvl had the same attack speed, now they have THREE?
      3. The ONLY weapon for the warrior is the two hand one. That means warrior does NOT have a weapon that could have 2 x Half Human bonus because the 2 hand weapon is transformed from Half Human Blade which cannot have it. Why?

      There are alot of changes that are not so obvious and might pass un-noticed by most of us. Nobody says a word about them and even if somebody makes a remark, it will pass silently. So Webzen will do what they want, nobody asks, everybody happy, right?...WRONG! Maybe I want 25 hh on my bow too...I bet a warrior would like 30 hh to compensate for the lack of double hh on his weapon. Why these are never questioned? You said you want ballance and start with status, skills and so on, but with each and every change looks like more un-ballance is added to the game, besides those existing bugs that already give advantages to some classes (remember the mount attack BUG?). And these bugs are always not the purpose of any beta testing, are always not a priority, are always not critical or important. I get it, solving bugs don't gather money, just waste them....but makes players happy you know? And a happy player is more willingly to invest his money
      This is metin2, a game full of nonsenses and injustices, this update can be called : "Unbalance: road to the end of metin2"

    • It would be great if they give us a reply...

      Rapier wrote:

      As the title says, I would like to know (and maybe I'm not the only one) what's the logic that sits behind various Kyanite weapons stats. And please, don't come with standard answers like "Webzen wants this". With answers like this, Webzen will remain to play this game alone. For years, the weapons had some weak spots and some strong ones, mostly in line with the charater that uses them. Now I don't find some reasons for:

      1. WHY do the Kyanite Daggers have 25 Half Human bonus while all others have only 20? Don't say they have less attack or that the "poor" Dagger Ninja is helpless so he need stronger weapon. It is the ONLY class that can do 2 x hit instead of just one (as the other chars can). That means that Dagger Ninjas always do 2 x hit damage per blow compared to the other classes and now you give them MORE Half Human bonus on the weapon? Why don't put 25 HH on bells or fans cause shamans have the lowest skill damage. Or put it on Magic Suras weapon as this class had no benefit at all from this "ballancing"
      2. Why do various Kyanite weapons have different attack speeds? Some have 27, some 25 some 30...? Always, all weapons from a certain lvl had the same attack speed, now they have THREE?
      3. The ONLY weapon for the warrior is the two hand one. That means warrior does NOT have a weapon that could have 2 x Half Human bonus because the 2 hand weapon is transformed from Half Human Blade which cannot have it. Why?

      There are alot of changes that are not so obvious and might pass un-noticed by most of us. Nobody says a word about them and even if somebody makes a remark, it will pass silently. So Webzen will do what they want, nobody asks, everybody happy, right?...WRONG! Maybe I want 25 hh on my bow too...I bet a warrior would like 30 hh to compensate for the lack of double hh on his weapon. Why these are never questioned? You said you want ballance and start with status, skills and so on, but with each and every change looks like more un-ballance is added to the game, besides those existing bugs that already give advantages to some classes (remember the mount attack BUG?). And these bugs are always not the purpose of any beta testing, are always not a priority, are always not critical or important. I get it, solving bugs don't gather money, just waste them....but makes players happy you know? And a happy player is more willingly to invest his money

    • Every single weapon works in a different way. A 2-handed weapon with 30 Attack Speed attacks slower than a 1-handed sword with 30 Attack Speed.

      The bonuses for each weapon, just like the standard statistics can be different from class to class.

      At the moment, there is no reason to add a sword for the warrior. Just because this won't be added now, this doesn't mean that a new sword will never be added.


      Regarding the mount bug, give me examples with videos and explanation because I have read it and it looks like it was something that happens because there is latency between client1<>server<>client2. The cap on speed has nothing to do with this, the cap on speed is about cheats and rubberbanding.

    • Rapier wrote:

      As the title says, I would like to know (and maybe I'm not the only one) what's the logic that sits behind various Kyanite weapons stats. And please, don't come with standard answers like "Webzen wants this". With answers like this, Webzen will remain to play this game alone. For years, the weapons had some weak spots and some strong ones, mostly in line with the charater that uses them. Now I don't find some reasons for:

      1. WHY do the Kyanite Daggers have 25 Half Human bonus while all others have only 20? Don't say they have less attack or that the "poor" Dagger Ninja is helpless so he need stronger weapon. It is the ONLY class that can do 2 x hit instead of just one (as the other chars can). That means that Dagger Ninjas always do 2 x hit damage per blow compared to the other classes and now you give them MORE Half Human bonus on the weapon? Why don't put 25 HH on bells or fans cause shamans have the lowest skill damage. Or put it on Magic Suras weapon as this class had no benefit at all from this "ballancing"
      2. Why do various Kyanite weapons have different attack speeds? Some have 27, some 25 some 30...? Always, all weapons from a certain lvl had the same attack speed, now they have THREE?
      3. The ONLY weapon for the warrior is the two hand one. That means warrior does NOT have a weapon that could have 2 x Half Human bonus because the 2 hand weapon is transformed from Half Human Blade which cannot have it. Why?

      There are alot of changes that are not so obvious and might pass un-noticed by most of us. Nobody says a word about them and even if somebody makes a remark, it will pass silently. So Webzen will do what they want, nobody asks, everybody happy, right?...WRONG! Maybe I want 25 hh on my bow too...I bet a warrior would like 30 hh to compensate for the lack of double hh on his weapon. Why these are never questioned? You said you want ballance and start with status, skills and so on, but with each and every change looks like more un-ballance is added to the game, besides those existing bugs that already give advantages to some classes (remember the mount attack BUG?). And these bugs are always not the purpose of any beta testing, are always not a priority, are always not critical or important. I get it, solving bugs don't gather money, just waste them....but makes players happy you know? And a happy player is more willingly to invest his money
      Yes, there are a lot of bugs reported during this beta and before the beta. I think that at this point in beta with all reports of bugs that have been such as the extra damage of 90+ map heads towards certain classes or 4x damage and other bugs that also affect pvm (abs hp, damage of poly marble, and others), should be fixed before this beta is added to the official server or at the same time that they are added as they affect in a large part the game playability.This would be very positive if the bugs are fixed some day but although I do not like being pessimistic, we all know that is unlikely for now and that is something that should be the top priority in every update.
      On the kyanite weapons truth we already know that in each class the damages are calculated differently but lately I see a tendency to make all physical weapons strike almost the same damage between them with little difference of valori, except the 2 hands and the bow that obviously have to possess more attack value than the rest. What I do not like is the main difference that there will be half humans in each weapon, goes all the weapons until now they had a balance which was that regardless of the class you were going to take the same amount of half humans. Now with these weapons some classes have more than others.

      unforgiven wrote:

      Every single weapon works in a different way. A 2-handed weapon with 30 Attack Speed attacks slower than a 1-handed sword with 30 Attack Speed.

      The bonuses for each weapon, just like the standard statistics can be different from class to class.

      At the moment, there is no reason to add a sword for the warrior. Just because this won't be added now, this doesn't mean that a new sword will never be added.


      Regarding the mount bug, give me examples with videos and explanation because I have read it and it looks like it was something that happens because there is latency between client1<>server<>client2. The cap on speed has nothing to do with this, the cap on speed is about cheats and rubberbanding.
      What I wanted to ask the GM besides what they have already asked is the following:
      The values of magic attack, physical and the bonuses they bring kyanite weapons, , are the actual values with which you intend to add these new weapons to the normal server?
      Since in any case if any moment arises the idea of changing those values would be better if they informed you here in the beta or in the case that this closed, to be warned on each server since many people who own 105+ 9 would be interested to know if these are the actual final values or for now are only test values.
      JonyBelmont, Body Warrior lv112. Metin2.es Server: Nemesis.

    • unforgiven wrote:

      ...
      Regarding the mount bug, give me examples with videos and explanation because I have read it and it looks like it was something that happens because there is latency between client1<>server<>client2. The cap on speed has nothing to do with this, the cap on speed is about cheats and rubberbanding.
      The most complex video explaining the BUG along with indepth calculations is here...And this video is made 3 years ago, but the BUG exists before that.



      Unfortunately it is spoken in Romanian. The one explaining has downloaded the video and even calculated the timings at frame level. The principle is simple and applies mostly for Mental Warrior (but works fior Body and shamans as well). You use a mount (it is widely used the lion...with the classic horse it's not working so well) and ride straight to a target. While you ride, you do evade skill from horse (that is extending the BUG time) and as soon as you are near your target unmount and use your skills. From the target point of view, is devastating most of the cases...target dies and see just the damage. The target is seeing the attacker in most cases walking/riding towards him and whil the attacker closes by, damage values "jump out" from target. By the time the attacker is seen by the victim nearby, is too late. In most cases the attacker has time to use 2 skills before the target can even notice. Also , as a target you cannot duck/avoid this kind of attack. Even if you move out of the way, you take all the damage, in most cases you run away and die at some distance.

      Now coming back to the Beta and ballancing and the Kyanite weapons. I understand what you said but that is too general speaking. All weapons sets since the begining had similar bonuses and attack speed for the same weapon level. All 90 weapons have the same attack speed and same HalfHuman standard bonus (10% Half Human). All 105 weapons have the same attack speed and the same Half Human bonus (15% Half Human).
      Now comes the Kyanite set that has three different attack speeds and ONLY ONE of them (the daggers) have more Half Human bonus (25% instead of 20%). My questions that still remains unanswered are: WHY? And HOW was decided which weapon has to receive 25% HH bonus and which only 20% HH? HOW it was decided that some weapons have 25 attack speed, some have 27 and others 30? Based on which grounds? Nobody asked nobody...and apparently there are classes that needs more 25% HH on a weapon than Dagger Ninja...for ex Warriors that have the 2 handed weapon that does not have double HH.
      ANY 115 weapon would have at maximum 20% (base HH) + 10% (extra HH bonus) = 30% HH...EXCEPT the warrior blade that will have only 20% HH cause that weapon cannot have extra 10% and EXCEPT daggers that will have 25% + 10% = 35% HH.

      You might say that 5% is small...no, it is not. It's similar with 5% skill damage increase + 5% hit damage increase. And at least for an archer, 5% is about 1000 damage extra on Fire Arrow on normal skill (not piercing/crit). It is the same value we would gain by wearing Sapphire Earrings or by having 12 DEX bonus. And you just gave this to daggers because...?

      Please don't get me wrong. I don't question the need for a difference between weapons even if they were the same till now....but it looks like the advantages were given where they're not needed and other weapons or classes were forgotten. I mean, someone though something in order to be decided that daggers should have 25% instead of 20%...what I question is the logic (if any) behind that. Cause it is obvious that Warriors or Shamans or even Magic Suras need that 5% HH increase more than a Dagger Ninja. Or ok, make them all the same as they were till now...nobody will question that since it was like this from the begining. But now you changed that and made some hard to understand choices. We would like to understand that way of thinking too, maybe we're missing the point.

    • okay i understand that you want to balance, but you think that 5 skills or 4 from a warrior makes more dmg than the 3 of dragon's shaman ? or the 3 fomr a armour sura?
      and so uyou think that byt the time he deals you that amount of dmg from skills you are able to kill him usingk skills that can't be used because of tre hight att speed.....

      pd: @meh what d u have to say about this?
      “Although there is no progress without change, not all change is progress.”
      :!: John Robert Wooden :!:
      Customer complaints are the schoolbooks from which we learn.
      Lou Guerstner

      The post was edited 1 time, last by TcatalunyaT ().

    • Rapier wrote:

      Unfortunately it is spoken in Romanian. The one explaining has downloaded the video and even calculated the timings at frame level. The principle is simple and applies mostly for Mental Warrior (but works fior Body and shamans as well). You use a mount (it is widely used the lion...with the classic horse it's not working so well) and ride straight to a target. While you ride, you do evade skill from horse (that is extending the BUG time) and as soon as you are near your target unmount and use your skills. From the target point of view, is devastating most of the cases...target dies and see just the damage. The target is seeing the attacker in most cases walking/riding towards him and whil the attacker closes by, damage values "jump out" from target. By the time the attacker is seen by the victim nearby, is too late. In most cases the attacker has time to use 2 skills before the target can even notice. Also , as a target you cannot duck/avoid this kind of attack. Even if you move out of the way, you take all the damage, in most cases you run away and die at some distance.

      There’s a few mistakes in there. First of all, you have to hit the Enemy with the Horse Skill to deal further Damage and extend the time (because of the knockback). Second you don’t have time for 2 Skills most of the time as a mental warrior, you definitely hit 1, but if the attacker keeps moving he will dodge the 2nd. Third you can avoid the Bug. You just have to jump on your own Mount/Horse and use the Horse Skill, in 8/10 cases the attacker will not be able to reach you.
      if you need help with anything, don't hesitate to ask me.

      Alles was ich im Umfang einer Diskussion schreibe, stellt lediglich meine persönliche Meinung dar.
      Solltet ihr Probleme im Spiel haben oder Hilfe benötigen könnt ihr euch jederzeit an mich wenden!

    • meh wrote:

      Rapier wrote:

      Unfortunately it is spoken in Romanian. The one explaining has downloaded the video and even calculated the timings at frame level. The principle is simple and applies mostly for Mental Warrior (but works fior Body and shamans as well). You use a mount (it is widely used the lion...with the classic horse it's not working so well) and ride straight to a target. While you ride, you do evade skill from horse (that is extending the BUG time) and as soon as you are near your target unmount and use your skills. From the target point of view, is devastating most of the cases...target dies and see just the damage. The target is seeing the attacker in most cases walking/riding towards him and whil the attacker closes by, damage values "jump out" from target. By the time the attacker is seen by the victim nearby, is too late. In most cases the attacker has time to use 2 skills before the target can even notice. Also , as a target you cannot duck/avoid this kind of attack. Even if you move out of the way, you take all the damage, in most cases you run away and die at some distance.
      There’s a few mistakes in there. First of all, you have to hit the Enemy with the Horse Skill to deal further Damage and extend the time (because of the knockback). Second you don’t have time for 2 Skills most of the time as a mental warrior, you definitely hit 1, but if the attacker keeps moving he will dodge the 2nd. Third you can avoid the Bug. You just have to jump on your own Mount/Horse and use the Horse Skill, in 8/10 cases the attacker will not be able to reach you.
      I agree with you and also I'm not an expert in this bug...I just experienced it on my own skin I might say. So there might be several mistakes and also consider that the video is made several years ago, since then the "tehnique" has improved.
      As an archer I cannot jump on a mount and use evade cause I cannot use evade with a bow (and till I change the weapon to do that it's too late anyways). Only effective way of avoiding this bug I found, is by using white flags (those that gives you 3 secs of invisibility) and move out of the way of the attacker. Since in order to do the bug it is needed to stop near your target and since the target is invisible and moving away, in most cases it is not effective.

      Some time ago I've proposed a way to stop this bug but instead of considering it, there were raised all kind of reasons for which what I proposed shouldn't be implemented (even if it was not affecting anyone). What I proposed was to force the player to stand still in order to un-mount. Similar with mounting or equipp an item. Since the BUG is based on the fact the attacker un-mounts near the target while moving, forcing him to stop for a fraction of a second will break the sequence and the BUG won't be possible anymore. But no, I got so many negative feedback against it, probably from the ones that are interested for this BUG to continue to be used. Doing that won't affect anyone neither in PvP nor PvE, no one needs to jump from the back of the mount while moving anyone can stop for a split second to get down from the mount.

      The facts remain...
      - it does exists for years
      - nothing has been done to eliminate it (or at least nothing was implemented or tested publicly)
      - there are only certain clasess that benefit from the bug (mostly Mental and Body Warriors, Lycans and Shamans)
      - nobody is sanctioned for using it despite the fact it is a BUG and BUG abusing is not allowed according to T&C. Everyone closes their eyes, players continue to use it and I can tell you THIS IS un-ballance. A Mental Warrior or Lycan with good alchemy and items cand kill almost everyone with this BUG and the target can't do anything against it.

      I got it, this is not the purpose of this beta...I'll stop here my pledge as it won't matter anyways, nobody cares. At least I proposed something to stop it. If someone from Webzen or GF wanted to end this BUG I am sure they would have find a way, come with constructive alternatives and so on. Good luck with the ballancing, I'm looking forward to any new addition to the game and in most cases like them but you should not forget that ballancings means more than introducing some fancy new weapon/armor sets and changes to stats and skills.

    • TcatalunyaT wrote:

      pd: @meh what d u have to say about this?
      To be honest, i don’t really get the Anger. But that may be, because I was never a fan of “everybody has to be equal” and that’s what this Thread sounds like to me. Imo the Kyanit Weapons do not make that much of a difference, if you take a look at the values.

      Because it got asked, yes I can confirm that the AV/MAV Values shown in one of the “new Weapon” Threads are correct.

      Rapier wrote:

      I agree with you and also I'm not an expert in this bug...I just experienced it on my own skin I might say. So there might be several mistakes and also consider that the video is made several years ago, since then the "tehnique" has improved.
      As an archer I cannot jump on a mount and use evade cause I cannot use evade with a bow (and till I change the weapon to do that it's too late anyways). Only effective way of avoiding this bug I found, is by using white flags (those that gives you 3 secs of invisibility) and move out of the way of the attacker. Since in order to do the bug it is needed to stop near your target and since the target is invisible and moving away, in most cases it is not effective.

      About the Bug.. The “stop moving” Idea is cool, but won’t work. Since you can just stand still, unmount and use the Bug the same old way. You just have a smaller window to hit your skill. It won’t fix it in General. I guess the delay could be caused because of Stat changing mounts.. At least that would explain why the normal Horse doesn’t work that well. Just because the normal Horse doesn’t give that much of Bonuses compared to for Example 10% DMG reduction. But that’s just an idea..

      You can’t really sanction people for it. Since it’s not a real “Bug”. Players keep referring to it as “Power Mount Bug” – yes, but imO it’s just a lag between client & server and not a bug..

      Unforgiven took part in this discussion, so be assured that he will forward what you wrote here, and try to find a solution for it.
      if you need help with anything, don't hesitate to ask me.

      Alles was ich im Umfang einer Diskussion schreibe, stellt lediglich meine persönliche Meinung dar.
      Solltet ihr Probleme im Spiel haben oder Hilfe benötigen könnt ihr euch jederzeit an mich wenden!

    • Ok, if Unforgiven is on it, I'm sure at least this wil be raised to a higher level. I don't say my idea is perfect, it was just the SINGLE idea about limiting the bug I heard/saw in a couple of years. It'll be great if anyone from Webzen/GF will come with a better one. The point is, instead of waiting for the perfect solution or the eradication of this bug (and since it was not done in years I doubt it'll come soon), some alternatives that limit the effect or make the BUG harder to use will be better than nothing.

      And yes, I totally agree with the fact that you cannot sanction someone for it. It is so widely spread it would mean you have to sanction hundreds of people. It is similar with the 3x damage bug that haunted Metin2 several years ago...almost everyone was using it. But that makes more and more people use it. There are certain players that "specialized" themselfes in using it in such a way that they're exclusively playing like this. If the BUG will be eradicated I guess they'll just don't know how to play otherwise. I'm looking forward to that day...